NBD - Counterfeit Ric 4004LK

[CGremlin]

and if Rickenbacker was so concerned about Rick copies they probably would've had this company cease production before the OP got one.

It's not that easy when you're dealing with a country that, at best, gives only lip service to enforcing IP law, and thus the company is more or less untouchable. Rickenbacker is a bit of an outlier here, as they already sell their entire production run and aren't interested in expanding. Thus, it's hard to argue that they're costing John Hall any sales. That's not true for the majority of counterfeit products, however.

Personally, I have a number of ideas for electronic products and software that I could easily build and make some money on if it weren't for the fact that two months after I spent the time to write the software and money to get boards made and molds shot, there'd be a listing on AliExpress for the same item, and/or the software would be pirated from here to forever. Spending thousands of dollars on securing a patent for something doesn't help when another country doesn't respect the same rules, and the Customs folks don't have the time or inclination to check out every package that enters the U.S. Additionally I *can't* produce an item for the cost that someone in China can because, again, China doesn't operate under the same rules as the U.S and can use what would essentially be slave labor here. So, while a lot of folks might get some use or enjoyment out of what I'd like to make, it's not worth doing because someone else is going to be making a knockoff using my own software at half the price I can, and I likely won't break even, much less make a profit. So why even bother?

For companies beyond a certain size, counterfeiting isn't that big of a deal. For small companies that are struggling, it's often the difference between success and bankruptcy.

 

[pie_man_25]

Are they selling that notebook or that backpack with the hand drawn Nike logo?

That’s the difference.

Honestly, I'm on your side in this. As much as I dislike how restricted their designs can be - I think having a budget brand could do Rick good. In that regard I can see the appeal to buying counterfeit. But at the end of the day, it's one thing for a kid to draw a Nike logo on a binder, entirely another to start up a factory that makes fakes of anything regardless of quality and price. At least under our current system of laws and ethics in the US and Canada, there's a definite line crossed there. China is quite a bit different with a lot of that stuff, but they've got and had different attitudes with regards to intellectual property among other things for a good while.

It's different with fender designs, if I recall the last ruling on that ended with the notion that only the headstocks and brand name are copyrighted - hence why you see knockoffs everywhere (or at least i believe that is so, I honestly can't cite any sources here). With Rickenbacker, I don't see any of that going around, so I suppose there's no grey area here.

 

[Fathand]

That actually looks pretty nice.

I was looking at this same bass (model) from Aliexpress after I put my real 4003S on order. Just because of, you know - it's a lot cheaper copy of the Lemmy model that is a pretty rare thing to begin with (IIRC, they made only 60 of them?). The TRC is pretty sketchy, though.

BTW, Did they copy the real scale length too, or is that a 34" scale?

 

[40Hz]

It's not that easy when you're dealing with a country that, at best, gives only lip service to enforcing IP law, and thus the company is more or less untouchable. Rickenbacker is a bit of an outlier here, as they already sell their entire production run and aren't interested in expanding. Thus, it's hard to argue that they're costing John Hall any sales. That's not true for the majority of counterfeit products, however.

Personally, I have a number of ideas for electronic products and software that I could easily build and make some money on if it weren't for the fact that two months after I spent the time to write the software and money to get boards made and molds shot, there'd be a listing on AliExpress for the same item, and/or the software would be pirated from here to forever. Spending thousands of dollars on securing a patent for something doesn't help when another country doesn't respect the same rules, and the Customs folks don't have the time or inclination to check out every package that enters the U.S. Additionally I *can't* produce an item for the cost that someone in China can because, again, China doesn't operate under the same rules as the U.S and can use what would essentially be slave labor here. So, while a lot of folks might get some use or enjoyment out of what I'd like to make, it's not worth doing because someone else is going to be making a knockoff using my own software at half the price I can, and I likely won't break even, much less make a profit. So why even bother?

For companies beyond a certain size, counterfeiting isn't that big of a deal. For small companies that are struggling, it's often the difference between success and bankruptcy.

In the past it was generally understood that you couldn't own an idea - just the implementation of it. Which is why the patent office required a detailed plan for an actual working device before they issued a patent. But somewhere along the line US businesses got the idea in their head that since they no longer wanted to manufacture anything themselves, wouldn't it be cool if you could essentially patent an idea. Then you could just come up with ideas and sit back an make big money licensing it with no employees or overhead required. Kinda like what Nike does. Nike makes nothing.They license their "swoosh" logo to actual manufacturing companies to put on their products.

The big drawback to this system is it becomes increasingly important for everybody to play by your rules. Especially now that the US has allowed it's manufacturing capacities to erode - and it no longer has the capability to manufacture many products from top to bottom. So since we can't build things completely anymore, it's critical that "intellectual property" and licensing rules be adhered to. Or the US is in big trouble quite frankly.

And this has even filtered down into the creative sector. Authors no longer want to continue writing nor do many musicians want to continue performing. Far too many people who do creative work now want to write just one good song or story and milk it for all eternity, suing anybody who creates something even remotely resembling it in some way, no matter how inconsequential or microscopic. (They even have computer software that analyzes music to show there technically is a copyright infringement even though the two songs it's comparing have no audible resemblance to each other even when professional musicians are the listeners.) Which is pretty ironic considering everybody who writes music is standing on the shoulders and the works of generations of composers who came before them.

But so it goes. We went down a dangerous path, And now we're feeling the effects.

Which makes it extremely hard on small companies like yours. Because what started as pushback against some overzealous interpretations of IP rules has now become institutionalized in Asia and other places. And it now is getting applied across the board to many more products. I had a friend who came up with a device that has broad use in the enterprise network world. He secured a patent on it and farmed out the manufacturing to China. And within a year his product was being marketed (with minor changes) all over Asia, and starting to show up in the US as well. His attorneys contacted some of the companies that were doing it and threatened legal action. Their response? "You're there. We're here. Your laws are your laws. And our laws are our laws. Come sue us!" Like Glinda the Witch of the North said to the Wicked Witch of the East: "Begone! You have no power here."

Welcome to the new world of business. I feel bad for any small innovative business in the US these days. If you're not getting hit with bogus patent infringement claims from big US businesses, you're getting your products knocked-off elsewhere in the world. Tough times indeed.

 

[GCPENG]

BTW, Did they copy the real scale length too, or is that a 34" scale?

33.25”

 

[Blissful_Lad]

Well, yeah. I kind of do. I’ve got albums with covers of Beatles songs.

And I’ve gone to see a Beatles tribute band.

And I’ve seen other cover bands do Beatles songs. My band does Come Together.

Why do you ask?

Not on point. But, never mind.

 

[Fathand]

33.25”
View attachment 3008233

Thanks.

 

[Skybone]

Honestly, I'm on your side in this. As much as I dislike how restricted their designs can be - I think having a budget brand could do Rick good.

I completely agree, however, unfortunately Mr. Hall disagrees. Rickenbacker have stated on many occaisions that they are not going to open a non-US built line, providing a genuine Ric at a more affordable product for those of us who can't afford a US built instrument. Though the prime argument for this is "unauthorised copies" and "quality".

I know most of the designs by Fender & Gibson have been copied many, many times, by many, many companies, but what about using the PRS model that they used for their SE line of guitars? They not only ensured that the quality was up to their specifications, but they also managed to ensure that there weren't any unauthorised copies.

 

[buldog5151bass]

I read a lot of people here telling Hall what he is doing wrong, and what he could do better. I also don't see any bass brand here with as strong brand loyalty, or as many people who want one, even if they never have touched one.

I think Mr. Hall knows what he is doing.

 

[Skybone]

Therein lies the problem...

I have owned a 4003 in the past, and regrettably had no choice but to sell it. The problem came with it's replacement... What can you replace something like a Ric with???

I tried quite a few, I owned a couple, but none of them were even close to a 4003 in terms of feel and sound. I stumbled on to a Faker, and it met all of my requirements to a "T".

In Economics, there is a concept of "best alternative". An equal or similar product, that matches the market leading product, but is a "better" price point for affordability. Fender have Squier, Gibson have Epiphone, PRS have the SE Range EB have SUB & Sterling, all of these provide a "best alternative" for their top line products. Unfortunately, it would seem that Rickenbacker are "cutting their nose off to spite their face" by insisting that they will not provide a "best alternative" product, thereby ensuring that they can limit the amount they spend on legal action chasing these unlicensed copies.

IMO of course.

 

[steveinohio]

I've had a bunch of Rics. I would wager that the quality of this one is close to what they do.I think its totally awesome! Congrats on a sweet bass.

 

[redstrand]

Are they selling that notebook or that backpack with the hand drawn Nike logo?

That’s the difference.

No, no it's not. Hand drawn is not counterfeit, that's obvious and putting a legit plate on a fake bass, one that if you just look at it and determine it's fake...google is your friend...then no one is being swindled. In a world where fakes of everything and bootlegs are made everyday, you get what you pay for. If you don't do the due diligence and figure that out, then you buying something that could possibly be fake will always rest on you. This is 2018 and the internet can be a great source of knowledge as well as trickery, if you're offended by a legit plate on a LK knockoff, I suggest that you are overthinking it just a bit.

If you bought the notebook with a hand drawn nike symbol on it thinking it's Nike, then that is whole nother set of problems. I quit using ebay years ago because of the fakes, CL too. Reverb is fine but you have to ask questions and get photos, last bass I got on here was a question mark due to the pics, once I dug a little and found the photos from the previous seller I was good, due diligence pays every time.

 

[fretter]

You're going to need a car to tote that thing around.
Can I interest you in a gently-used BMW?

View attachment 3006851

I'm a bit of a snob, so it would have to be a Benz for me.

 

[D M C]

 

[Roland GR 88]

And as for official TB policy, discussing counterfeit items is allowed. Owning them and posting a NBD thread about them is allowed. We don’t allow them to be sold through our classifieds, but that’s the only restriction.

What we do not allow is disrespectful or insulting comments towards other members. Keep those to yourself.

Thank you

That's fine but this thread is clearly an exercise in trolling as in......"And now for the shot that will enrage many of you"
O.P. is free to do what he likes with his money but these threads are simply insulting to anyone that works in this industry. Using TB as a promotional tool for counterfeits isn't the intent here but it's the end result and the real winner is AliBaba who get free advertising

 

[redstrand]

That's fine but this thread is clearly an exercise in trolling as in......"And now for the shot that will enrage many of you"
O.P. is free to do what he likes with his money but these threads are simply insulting to anyone that works in this industry. Using TB as a promotional tool for counterfeits isn't the intent here but it's the end result and I can guarantee that unless this bass goes with the O.P. to his grave it WILL eventually be sold as a legitimate Ric and someone WILL get hosed.
good day all

Which is entirely your opinion, no one with any knowledge of a LK Ric would mistake this for the real thing just because of the cover, SMH. Give some folks credit for having a bit of insight and ability.

 

[Roland GR 88]

Which is entirely your opinion, no one with any knowledge of a LK Ric would mistake this for the real thing just because of the cover, SMH. Give some folks credit for having a bit of insight and ability.

That's ok guy, you don't get it. Someday you might.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

That's fine but this thread is clearly an exercise in trolling as in......"And now for the shot that will enrage many of you"
O.P. is free to do what he likes with his money but these threads are simply insulting to anyone that works in this industry. Using TB as a promotional tool for counterfeits isn't the intent here but it's the end result and the real winner is AliBaba who get free advertising and glowing testimonials from dupes like the O.P.

I think that's where we get into the prohibition against insulting other TB members. There is an entire thread (Club Rickenfaker) dedicated to the discussion of Ric clones, maybe that was a better place to discuss this, but since it's allowed by TB rules, people just have to suck it up and accept that not everyone agrees on this issue. Welcome to real life.
Club RickenFaker / FakenBacker - Show Your Fake Rics!

 

[Mvilmany]

I’m not ok with fake decals or truss-rod covers. Whether it’s a cloned Ric or people putting Fender decals on Squier or parts necks. Even if the current owner has no plans to sell it, or sells it with the knowledge of it being counterfeit, eventually someone is going to get burned.

IMO, it would be perfectly fine if it did not have the Rickenbacker logo.

Putting/keeping a fake logo on any kind of product screams “dishonesty” to me.

 

[redstrand]

That's ok guy, you don't get it. Someday you might.

I more than get it, stop trolling.