Why Do Bass Players Not Question the Validity of What They Are Taught

[MultiScaleMale]

I haven’t attended an expensive music school, so I can’t comment on that aspect other than it doesn’t really make sense from a ROI perspective to spend $200k on a degree when you look at the average wages of musicians.

But, when I go to a clinic, I’m there to learn another perspective or another way to approach a song. I don’t think there is one true way to do anything in music or any art form. So, I absorb a little from A, something else from B, etc, etc and I think that’s one way to develop something that ends up being uniquely your own. I don’t want to be a clone of any of the clinicians I’ve seen, but I do like to get to know their approach.

 

[BassChuck]

I went to music school many years ago; the price tag was lower for sure. Also I didn't go to music school for bass, I was a Trumpet major undergrad and French horn grad school. The reason for undergrad was to get a teaching certificate, the reason for grad school was to become a better Horn player.
On Bass, I'm 'self taught', but in no way could I have learned to play bass without the knowledge of music from school and the experience of being in all kinds of ensembles. Networking and interaction with fellow students is a huge positive of school, and students would be well advised to learn how to take advantage of those aspects.
So my take on your question is this: music school will make you a better musician, and that will make you a better bass player. In other words, private lessons, YouTube vids, and reading books will not do the complete job. A solid background of musical knowledge and a lifetime of gigs is what is needed.

 

[lbbc]

I am a music teacher, and have been for the past 20 years, and a bass player. For the most part I am self-taught. I took lessons, from a very well-respected teacher, for 6 months primarily to learn slap technique... still can't slap.

I also play in an electric/acoustic trio and sing lead and backing vocals while playing bass. My improvement comes from assessing my progress after working on a particular skill or run. I understand music theory and how to apply that to my playing.

Am I the best bass player I can be? No. I can always improve...and that can only be done by being honest about my abilities/limitations, set a goal, work towards achieving that goal and then setting a new goal. I have not attended higher institutions of learning for bass nor have I attended bass camps...just a husband and father who plays in a very successful local band for musical fulfillment and fun.

 

[MattZilla]

Conservatories of music and performing arts are more prominent on the European higher education landscape than in the United States. Illustrating the ways in which Bologna principles spread outside of its formal channels, the conservatories of Europe organized their own discipline-based qualifications guidance in Project Polifonia, and the essay pays significant attention to this undertaking because the performing arts are probably more transparent than other disciplinary areas when it comes to articulating what students should be able to demonstrate and at what level of competence, for determining how much time it takes students to prepare for that demonstration, and for translating that time into credits. We learn what “sustaining arguments and solving problems” means in music, along with the portfolio of reference points—repertoire skills, ensemble skills, improvisational skills, knowledge of performing traditions, technological developments in music, and research—to which all participants in Project Polifonia agreed. Consideration of Polifonia is an ideal lead-in to our third chapter of learning from the Bologna Process, a very different conception of credits.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Bass player, like Guitar and Drums are from a rebelious time ... and so conventionnal learning was out of the question and still out of the question. And so music became more and more dumbed down because of it.

It is like they are proud of being stupid and go by instinc as if knowing will rub them of their creativity ( in their mind that is )

 

[Bodeeni]

I think the schools, universities, provide a big benefit. Reading, theory learning to play different music and be just part of the band. And, you can end up with a degree. I wish I had done it.

 

[Wandering Bass]

Your supposition is flawed. I teach adults and there are three distinct components to that. I teach technology and design, but have applied the same principles to music instruction in the past, and many colleagues express the same concepts.

Factual — Part of any subject will be factual, foundational, and not open to debate. Music is codified upon a staff using notes. A student simply cannot draw butterflies upon a pudding and expect someone else to read it as music. The foundations of any discipline are what define that discipline.

Interpretive — This is where the individual explores, experiments, and bends the rules. What if I do this? If I combine these two things what happens? Tell a student that they can never use a G# in a particular song and guess what they will do?

Collaborative — The intermixing of ideas and experiences. Working with someone else changes your perceptions. Through challenging the other’s ideas, defending your own, and finding a way forward you end up somewhere unique.

Do music schools teach things that are not to be challenged lightly? Yes. But they also encourage moving beyond those foundations and putting your own vibe onto things. Knowledge and creativity are not opposites, they inform and empower each other.

 

[Ric5]

Why Do Bass Players Not Question the Validity of What They Are Taught

ok ...

How about this ...

- 4 strings are not enough to be a good bass player today

 

[downunder]

I went back to school in my 40s. I had taken private lessons and taken one year of a classical music college program on cello many years earlier. I felt like there were gaps in my knowledge and ability. I didn’t pay 20 K per semester. I went to city College of New York - the tuition was something like $1800 per semester. I was able to study upright bass with John Patittucci there. Really his lessons were like a whole curriculum. There was reading, ear training, technique, bowing and classical pieces, transcribing, working on soloing, working on constructing baselines And probably more stuff. The school also gave me a lot of opportunities to play in ensembles and learn tunes that way. And I liked the harmony classes and piano class. I felt like my playing improved dramatically while I was there and probably I was playing my best ever. time, Intonation, soloing, sound , everything improved. With all that said I agree that spending 20 K per semester is excessive to learn music and learn an instrument. Having a great teacher who will challenge you to do what needs to be done is really all you need. But I found that having a structured environment and clear assignments and goals was very helpful.

 

[JRA]

IME: becoming a better musician has always been the goal. being a better bass player was always a function of that (secondary). so: i haven't been the 'victim' of 'bass pedagogy'.

most, but not all, of the 'bass lessons' i've taken were from drummers, piano players, and even a few horn players. lessons for the 'real world' vs. the bedroom.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I could spout off a list a mile long of the things I’ve learned from others to be a better player. That includes private lessons, VHS, DVD’s, books, YouTube, and currently paid online lessons.

I am currently struggling with jazz so taking lessons online works for me and when I put the time in, yes I feel like I’m a better player. Right now I’m starting to learn more about jazz phrasing, I’ve gotten a lot better at reading music, jazz chords and common progressions. I’m not gonna lie though, jazz is kicking my butt.

In response to your comment about teachers. I think if you go to an institution, you should not expect anything but the curriculum. You should learn the curriculum and be able to pass whatever tests or provide measurable results. Private lessons, like tutoring, should be used to fill gaps and expand on ideas. I think that SHOULD be enough to propel someone forward with their playing.

Here’s the rub. Music, at least to me, is incredibly interesting and fascinating. I also want to be the best I can possibly be at playing electric bass. Am I there? No. Will I ever be as good as I want to be? Probably not. There is always something new to uncover. 98% of the musicians I’ve met are not that way. A lot of musicians I have interacted with are lazy when it comes to seeking out those learning experiences and pushing themselves. This is especially sad because of how easy it is to access information and lessons now vs. 23 years ago when I started playing.

So yes, there is merit to saying some teachers suck. You pick any career and there are going to be people that you work with that are terrible at what they do. But I would also assert that you can’t teach interest and motivation to a student.

As for the “you can’t tune down” comment I believe that is in reference to a thread from last week. Common sense would tell you that you can tune your bass to nothing but open E strings as long as you can hit the notes that you need to. Much like interest and motivation, common sense can’t be taught. If it could then forums like this wouldn’t exist ;-)

Thank you for your thoughts. I only wish to state that, although I would never say that anyone that teaches incorrectly "sucks." Rather, my concern is that the general standard of bass education is low. Bass players are partially responsible as they don't want to be taught correctly. There is a symmetry in the teacher-student relationship where many teachers that don't know much about music teach many students that don't wish to know about it either. Thus, I can be viewed as a nuisance for commenting that people are not acting in a level of excellence that makes everyone the losers.

Your thoughts about jazz are exactly why I view bass educators as most incompetent. Jazz is entirely based in musical principles and these principles apply to most of the types of music where the electric bass is used. If jazz is proving difficult for you (I assume that you are not being self taught in this musical style) then your teachers are the ones that are failing you. Teaching jazz is easy if you remember that you are involved in an academic experience, not an artful one A teacher has to know about music in order to teach it. If you are studying with a teacher and you cannot fathom the lessons or cannot catch the drift of what it is you are supposed to be practicing, then you are not at fault here.

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Have you just elevated to the level of arguing with yourself?

When I was writing this, I caught this as well. It is the irony of bass education which is why I cannot stress enough that one does some research and makes sure that their bass teacher only teaches them music. Then, if you think about it, what other choice do you have except to trust that you found a good teacher and have put your very musical career into his hands. This is how important your bass teacher is; no matter what, at the end of the day, they get paid and you have to live with the results of what they taught you, often for life.

 

[JeffBerlin]

If some people prefer to be taught than to learn mostly by themselves, why whould they question the validity of what they were taught ?

I don't question the validity of wishing to be taught by someone else. I question the validity of what kind of music education is being taught to them.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Questioning the validity of everything you’re taught is OK but it means you have to reinvent it all yourself.

Many groundbreaking geniuses master a topic and THEN throw out the rule book.

But, remember that most people are not groundbreaking geniuses and therefore shouldn't prepare to reinvent anything if they haven't even learned how to play yet. People go to music school to learn how to play, hopefully not to reinvent themselves.

 

[JeffBerlin]

IME: becoming a better musician has always been the goal. being a better bass player was always a function of that (secondary). so: i haven't been the 'victim' of 'bass pedagogy'.

most, but not all, of the 'bass lessons' i've taken were from drummers, piano players, and even a few horn players. lessons for the 'real world' vs. the bedroom.

This is great to hear. I would like to assume that you were taught only musical content based in harmony, rhythm, and melody, reading etudes exclusively. Other than being taught these subjects (because these are the most elusive to most bass players) there doesn't seem to be any other reason to go to a school or to a teacher to learn how to play the bass.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I went back to school in my 40s. I had taken private lessons and taken one year of a classical music college program on cello many years earlier. I felt like there were gaps in my knowledge and ability. I didn’t pay 20 K per semester. I went to city College of New York - the tuition was something like $1800 per semester. I was able to study upright bass with John Patittucci there. Really his lessons were like a whole curriculum. There was reading, ear training, technique, bowing and classical pieces, transcribing, working on soloing, working on constructing baselines And probably more stuff. The school also gave me a lot of opportunities to play in ensembles and learn tunes that way. And I liked the harmony classes and piano class. I felt like my playing improved dramatically while I was there and probably I was playing my best ever. time, Intonation, soloing, sound , everything improved. With all that said I agree that spending 20 K per semester is excessive to learn music and learn an instrument. Having a great teacher who will challenge you to do what needs to be done is really all you need. But I found that having a structured environment and clear assignments and goals was very helpful.

Your post is inspiring to me. I hope that it is inspiring to others as well. It is how I personally would do things if I wished to study. For me, you did this perfectly. I hope that you continue studying music beyond the bass. Charlie Banacos was anything but a bass teacher. He enlightened us all with musical illumination. I hope that you will try and find another teacher like him. Garry Dial comes to mind if you are interested. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I think you're making a big assumption in thinking students don't question their teachers or that those seeking knowledge don't question the validity of various sources of information.

I am privy to comments from fans of top bass teachers. I hear from students at schools commenting about how they trust the lessons they receive. I've gotten a deep insight from people about how they feel about the lessons that they get from various source. I can tell you with confidence that a lot of people don't question anything whatsoever regarding what they are being taught.

Being a fan of schools, bass teachers or clinicians and never question the validity of the lessons being taught to them is common to the degree that it is now a worldwide phenomenon. Remember that I have given clinics for decades all over the planet and I have heard a lot of people both play and discuss their trust of what is being taught to them. I get private messages and public comments and have for decades. My insights are based on what people share with me and what I have heard from them when they played their basses at clinics worldwide.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I haven’t attended an expensive music school, so I can’t comment on that aspect other than it doesn’t really make sense from a ROI perspective to spend $200k on a degree when you look at the average wages of musicians.

But, when I go to a clinic, I’m there to learn another perspective or another way to approach a song. I don’t think there is one true way to do anything in music or any art form. So, I absorb a little from A, something else from B, etc, etc and I think that’s one way to develop something that ends up being uniquely your own. I don’t want to be a clone of any of the clinicians I’ve seen, but I do like to get to know their approach.

I like your view. Actually, what you stated fits perfectly within the self taught philosophy. I view clinicians as musically limited in teaching students. As players, they are all fantastic.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I am a music teacher, and have been for the past 20 years, and a bass player. For the most part I am self-taught. I took lessons, from a very well-respected teacher, for 6 months primarily to learn slap technique... still can't slap.

I also play in an electric/acoustic trio and sing lead and backing vocals while playing bass. My improvement comes from assessing my progress after working on a particular skill or run. I understand music theory and how to apply that to my playing.

Am I the best bass player I can be? No. I can always improve...and that can only be done by being honest about my abilities/limitations, set a goal, work towards achieving that goal and then setting a new goal. I have not attended higher institutions of learning for bass nor have I attended bass camps...just a husband and father who plays in a very successful local band for musical fulfillment and fun.

Self taught bass teachers tend to teach elements of bass playing that everyone else learned for free and often in a profound manner. You did! Music lessons should be about teaching musical principles that are not that available to self taught musicians. Here, too, it wasn't with you.

I am never going to negatively comment about the honest and heartfelt desire that many teachers have to educate bass students. As with all things, my views are narrow and hopefully to the point: Self taught teachers teach principles of bass that everyone else learns for free. I don't see how students are elevated into the profound world of music and playing improvement by teaching principles that one can always find elsewhere.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Conservatories of music and performing arts are more prominent on the European higher education landscape than in the United States. Illustrating the ways in which Bologna principles spread outside of its formal channels, the conservatories of Europe organized their own discipline-based qualifications guidance in Project Polifonia, and the essay pays significant attention to this undertaking because the performing arts are probably more transparent than other disciplinary areas when it comes to articulating what students should be able to demonstrate and at what level of competence, for determining how much time it takes students to prepare for that demonstration, and for translating that time into credits. We learn what “sustaining arguments and solving problems” means in music, along with the portfolio of reference points—repertoire skills, ensemble skills, improvisational skills, knowledge of performing traditions, technological developments in music, and research—to which all participants in Project Polifonia agreed. Consideration of Polifonia is an ideal lead-in to our third chapter of learning from the Bologna Process, a very different conception of credits.

Interesting thoughts. I have a question: in your post, are you referring to how the electric bass is being taught?