Why Do Bass Players Not Question the Validity of What They Are Taught

[JeffBerlin]

Your supposition is flawed. I teach adults and there are three distinct components to that. I teach technology and design, but have applied the same principles to music instruction in the past, and many colleagues express the same concepts.

Factual — Part of any subject will be factual, foundational, and not open to debate. Music is codified upon a staff using notes. A student simply cannot draw butterflies upon a pudding and expect someone else to read it as music. The foundations of any discipline are what define that discipline.

Interpretive — This is where the individual explores, experiments, and bends the rules. What if I do this? If I combine these two things what happens? Tell a student that they can never use a G# in a particular song and guess what they will do?

Collaborative — The intermixing of ideas and experiences. Working with someone else changes your perceptions. Through challenging the other’s ideas, defending your own, and finding a way forward you end up somewhere unique.

Do music schools teach things that are not to be challenged lightly? Yes. But they also encourage moving beyond those foundations and putting your own vibe onto things. Knowledge and creativity are not opposites, they inform and empower each other.

Thank you for sharing. I submit that the Interpretive is found by being self taught. Why pay to study with a teacher and learn musical and playing principles that I can learn for free. I also suggest that the Collaborative seems flawed. If I understood you correctly, my job is to improve my student's playing, not to use them help me to change my perspectives. This is one of the flaws with a broad view of teaching; assigning musical content doesn't require a lot of various views and different perspectives. It is already proven to take almost anyone and improve their playing.

 

[Plectrum72]

I am privy to comments from fans of top bass teachers. I hear from students at schools commenting about how they trust the lessons they receive. I've gotten a deep insight from people about how they feel about the lessons that they get from various source. I can tell you with confidence that a lot of people don't question anything whatsoever regarding what they are being taught.

Being a fan of schools, bass teachers or clinicians and never question the validity of the lessons being taught to them is common to the degree that it is now a worldwide phenomenon. Remember that I have given clinics for decades all over the planet and I have heard a lot of people both play and discuss their trust of what is being taught to them. I get private messages and public comments and have for decades. My insights are based on what people share with me and what I have heard from them when they played their basses at clinics worldwide.

So this is based on anecdotal experience from your encounters with (many, but likely not all or even more than half of) others who study bass or music. Sounds like a valid data set to me.

 

[Jrussblues]

Thank you for your thoughts. I only wish to state that, although I would never say that anyone that teaches incorrectly "sucks." Rather, my concern is that the general standard of bass education is low. Bass players are partially responsible as they don't want to be taught correctly. There is a symmetry in the teacher-student relationship where many teachers that don't know much about music teach many students that don't wish to know about it either. Thus, I can be viewed as a nuisance for commenting that people are not acting in a level of excellence that makes everyone the losers.

Your thoughts about jazz are exactly why I view bass educators as most incompetent. Jazz is entirely based in musical principles and these principles apply to most of the types of music where the electric bass is used. If jazz is proving difficult for you (I assume that you are not being self taught in this musical style) then your teachers are the ones that are failing you. Teaching jazz is easy if you remember that you are involved in an academic experience, not an artful one A teacher has to know about music in order to teach it. If you are studying with a teacher and you cannot fathom the lessons or cannot catch the drift of what it is you are supposed to be practicing, then you are not at fault here.

Thank you for your thoughts.

The jazz part is honestly just not being able to make the time to dig deep into all of the theory. That is my fault, but it requires more than a couple of minutes for me to work on learning and retaining the information and being that I decided to build a house, have a baby and learn jazz the jazz thing is just taking a back burner to other responsibilities. I am not currently working with an instructor just doing the John patitucci courses online. I have yet to send videos or interact because I have been so wrapped up with other things and I’m not gonna send a bunch of videos of me half assing my way through a tune just for the sake of doing it. That would be wasteful of both our time. So I guess in a nutshell, I am kinda teaching myself for now.

 

[basseux]

I don't question the validity of wishing to be taught by someone else. I question the validity of what kind of music education is being taught to them.

What I say is that you are less likely to question the validity of what you are taught when you choose to be taught.
And if you doubt the validity then you are more likely to try to learn by yourself.

In my opinion the initial question is contradictory.
You want people to look for teachers and have a mindset similar to self taught people, who will think they know what is good to learn for them.

 

[JeffBerlin]

What I say is that you are less likely to question the validity of what you are taught when you choose to be taught.
And if you doubt the validity then you are more likely to try to learn by yourself.

In my opinion the initial question is contradictory.
You want people to look for teachers and have a mindset similar to self taught people, who will think they know what is good to learn for them.

This is the dilemma of today's bass educational community. People created this for themselves because most bass players literally steered away from proper learning. And they still do. It isn't just to argue that I have warned people for a lot of years that one day the reality of what they have supported was going to make the musical lives of future bass players difficult in my opinion.

 

[JeffBerlin]

So this is based on anecdotal experience from your encounters with (many, but likely not all or even more than half of) others who study bass or music. Sounds like a valid data set to me.

Well, I have a rather intimate insight into the teaching and playing of a lot of different players. Plus, I have a deeper academic involvement in my background than any other electric bass player. You can research my comment if you wish, but you aren't going to find anyone that plays our instrument with my kind of training. Thus, if my comments don't mean anything to you, then just ignore them and carry on as you normally do. Good luck!

 

[JeffBerlin]

Why Do Bass Players Not Question the Validity of What They Are Taught

ok ...

How about this ...

- 4 strings are not enough to be a good bass player today

It doesn't matter the amount of strings one uses. It matter one's skill to play them. If one can't play a four string bass, they won't be able to play a five string either. It always comes down to what people have learned. Always!

 

[Ric5]

It doesn't matter the amount of strings one uses. It matter one's skill to play them. If one can't play a four string bass, they won't be able to play a five string either. It always comes down to what people have learned. Always!

You do know I was kidding ??? yes ... no ...

 

[Plectrum72]

Well, I have a rather intimate insight into the teaching and playing of a lot of different players. Plus, I have a deeper academic involvement in my background than any other electric bass player. You can research my comment if you wish, but you aren't going to find anyone that plays our instrument with my kind of training. Thus, if my comments don't mean anything to you, then just ignore them and carry on as you normally do. Good luck!

So what you're saying is don't question the vaidity of what the teacher with the deepest academic involvement and intimate insight is saying, but at the same time wonder why more don't question the validity of what they are taught? I suppose if you only want discourse that supports the confirmation bias to your concusion of your query, then I will do as you suggest and ignore further comments.

 

[lbbc]

Self taught bass teachers tend to teach elements of bass playing that everyone else learned for free and often in a profound manner. You did! Music lessons should be about teaching musical principles that are not that available to self taught musicians. Here, too, it wasn't with you.

I am never going to negatively comment about the honest and heartfelt desire that many teachers have to educate bass students. As with all things, my views are narrow and hopefully to the point: Self taught teachers teach principles of bass that everyone else learns for free. I don't see how students are elevated into the profound world of music and playing improvement by teaching principles that one can always find elsewhere.

Agreed...that had been my experience. I don't teach bass, I teach elementary school music (singing, rhythms, notation etc.) I want to expand on my knowledge of bass playing but most of those who teach, locally, are self-taught and that's why I no longer take lessons and rely on improving my technique and ability by goal-setting.

 

[Watchootognbout]

In order to ask questions one has to have a critical knowledge base to ask from.
Many students don't have this.

 

[JeffBerlin]

In order to ask questions one has to have a critical knowledge base to compare against.
Many students don't have this.

You are correct. And because bass education at all levels is so poor, students have little change to even know if what they are being taught has musical merit.

I've told people what to look for, but many bass players resist my thoughts.

If some would take the plunge and just trust my views completely, even for three to six months, practically all bass players would find out that there really has only been one or two solid ways to learn how to play.

 

[JeffBerlin]

So what you're saying is don't question the vaidity of what the teacher with the deepest academic involvement and intimate insight is saying, but at the same time wonder why more don't question the validity of what they are taught? I suppose if you only want discourse that supports the confirmation bias to your concusion of your query, then I will do as you suggest and ignore further comments.

What I see is that you are looking to split hairs on a subject that is simple to understand as it is. If you choose not to not grasp the meaning of my thoughts, I recommend that you change your thinking in this regard.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Agreed...that had been my experience. I don't teach bass, I teach elementary school music (singing, rhythms, notation etc.) I want to expand on my knowledge of bass playing but most of those who teach, locally, are self-taught and that's why I no longer take lessons and rely on improving my technique and ability by goal-setting.

Your story exists at all levels of music. The really qualified bass teachers are out there, but in few numbers. The real shock is how many unqualified bass teachers teach at top music schools in my opinion.

Music, only music, and nothing buy music will change absolutely everyone's playing for the better. There just is no doubt about this which is why it concerns me seeing so many bass players jeopardizing their musical lives based on fan love. It simply does not have to be this way and I hope that more young bass players catch on to this. They are being influenced by rumor and reputation, not fact and function.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

And somehow the world keeps turning and great albums / tours keep happening.

 

[carl h.]

What I see is that you are looking to split hairs on a subject that is simple to understand as it is. If you choose not to not grasp the meaning of my thoughts*, I recommend that you change your thinking in this regard.

*"I'm right and you are an idiot if you question Me."

You may be correct in many of your assertions but when the primary focus of your thesis is applied to you, you protest.

 

[JeffBerlin]

*"I'm right and you are an idiot if you question Me."

You may be correct in many of your assertions but when the primary focus of your thesis is applied to you, you protest.

Here is the premise and you can accept it or not.

Discussing points of learning in a bass chatroom is often interpreted through one's own filter. One can find flaw with many things being discussed that might not be experienced in a hands-on experience. This is an inherent problem with Talkbass as I see it, that people argue points that they haven't yet investigated or experienced for themselves. So what if something applies to one point but might not apply to another one. This is how the individual improvement of bass players best takes place - point by point.

I don't protest people deciding to not get a point of regard that I offer. People question me all the time, which is their right. It is their musical lives that are in their hands. I can only share my experience regarding learning and let people decide their own conclusions about them. If what I say is not acceptable to you or others, then, sincerely, I wish you and them well.

 

[Spin Doctor]

And somehow the world keeps turning and great albums / tours keep happening.

Go figure... The rest of the world is like Jeff who?

 

[JeffBerlin]

Go figure... The rest of the world is like Jeff who?

My views are based on bass education not gigging and touring. Bass education is a topic that is not familiar to you. It is practically an ungraspable point for you and many other bass players to fathom that learning how to play is entirely different from playing itself.

 

[JeffBerlin]

*"I'm right and you are an idiot if you question Me."

You may be correct in many of your assertions but when the primary focus of your thesis is applied to you, you protest.

Well, people usually defend their positions, don't they? Why is it that some people make attempts to defend and explain their views but I am not allowed the same consideration.

I always state that after reading my thoughts, if people choose to ignore them, then I wish them good luck in their pursuit of music. If you see me offering contrary points of regards to posts that people sometimes make, you would be correctly. Just remember that this seems to be a key function here on TB, posting opposing views. Why not allow me the same courtesy to act in a manner that many people here already do.